Episode 180 - The Parris Perspective: Shana Francesca's Insights

All right, can you tell me a bit about yourself, who you are, and what your message is?

my name is Shana Francesca. I am a scholar of intentional and ethical leadership and relationship and, a little bit about myself. I grew up in extremely high control situations. So an abusive household and in high control religion and, had no understanding of, was never given the ability. Or given models for healthy relationship or leadership. so as I moved into adulthood, I realized, wait a second, you probably are not healthy in all the ways, right? Like you're not being able to show up, because you don't know how. And also you don't know what kind of. Like I was, working in jobs where leadership was toxic. And I was like, I keep ending up in scenarios where I'm being harmed. And so there's a pattern here and I've got to figure out what healthy relationship and leadership looks like for myself so that I can identify it and I can keep myself out of harm's way. and that began a 14 years worth of study into leadership and relationship that somewhere along the way, I became an expert and people kept coming to me and asking me like, Hey, how do I show up as a better leader? How do I show up as a better friend? how do I better empower myself in relationship? and then, you know, it kind of turned into what I do now, which is consulting and, and keynote speaking, and workshops and get to talk to people, about what relationship is, because I think for far too many of us, maybe we think relationship is proximity. If we have access to somebody, we're in relationship with them, right? But that's not what relationship is, right? Relationship is just not proximity. Relationship is continually trying to gain expertise in understanding the people in the world around us, and that requires specific things. And so the basis of my work is that all relationship and ethical leadership requires curiosity, respect and accountability.

So, what is toxic leadership?

I mean, it shows up in so many forms. but I think oftentimes what I see happen is that people were taught a lot of leaders have been taught this, playbook of like, you have to know it all or you have to convince everybody, you know, at all. And you need to be the one in control. You need to be the one telling everybody what to do. Everything has to go through you. it's both not efficient. It's fundamentally inhumane for both you as a leader and the people you're leading. It diminishes their capacity to contribute. And we as human beings need to both be needed, right. And to contribute. as much as we want to give to others, we also need to be needed. and so, fundamentally we have to realize that being a leader, it's about reciprocity. and so when we're not invested in reciprocity with the people that we lead, when we are not valuing their opinions and insights, when we are avoiding accountability because we don't want to think about the fact that we've done harm, right? To me, the most successful years I've seen are the ones who can say, I caused harm here. I didn't have enough information. I'm going to learn more. I'm going to make it right. I'm going to do better. And those companies, we see cultures like that inside of all kinds of organizations. where they were able to transform these companies that were struggling, like, even like Campbell soup. Right. And now they've transformed themselves to a place where they're buying up and, all kinds of, brands and they're expanding and they're growing. And why? Because the CEO came in, in the early two thousands. Yeah. And he was like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna walk these halls and I'm gonna talk to the people who have been doing this for a really long time because there's a lot of untapped wisdom there. There's so much wisdom inside the people who are doing of our organizations. They see things we don't have access to, and we really need to not undervalue that we can't. Literally, we can't value it enough.

Define harm.

Anytime we're violating someone's consent or boundaries, I mean, harm can be any number of things. It depends on the person. It depends on their own boundaries. But typically, you know, when we're talking about harm, we're talking about something that inhibits somebody's ability to live a thriving life. it doesn't mean that people don't need to be challenged. It doesn't mean that we don't need to grow and learn. But when we're inhibiting somebody's ability to be connected to their own humanity while we're violating someone's autonomy, when we are being disrespectful, when we are refusing accountability on our relationship with them, we are doing harm. And we're seeking to normalize it when we avoid accountability.

Were you a victim of this harm at any time?

Of course, I grew up in an abusive household and inside of a high control religion. I was, people did cause me lots of harm.

What types of people?

the, mostly the adults around me, right? So it was a varying degrees when the people around me who were definitely old enough to be taking accountability, who refused accountability, who, Consistently told I was to do what I was told, did not have the right to ask why, because even asking why was disrespectful, which isn't true. I have a right to establish why somebody wants me to do something, whether I'm a child or an adult, and I have a right to establish whether or not that violates my boundaries. and so it was always for me to do as I was told, never mind the consequences. I was not allowed to ask about the consequences or, or challenge the consequences. They were just mine to bear and to do so quietly. I grew up in a very toxic environment.

Before we get deeper into the toxic environment.

No, are you?

Okay, that's good. So, what are the foundations to a toxic environment?

I think, rather than the foundations of a toxic environment, what I see is what leads to a toxic environment is a lack of accountability, that there are people who are kept separate from accountability. There are people who have a diminished requirement to be accountable at minimum, right? The minute that we. especially as leaders, but as human beings are divested, the minute that we are trying to protect ourselves, dodge, avoid accountability is the minute we are causing harm and we are normalizing it. And that really is fundamental because also at the same time, we're probably trying to stifle curiosity. We don't want people to ask questions. We don't want people to be connected to one another. We keep people pitted against one another. if accountability has left the conversation, so is curiosity. So has the desire to connect people to understanding and education and growth compassion because empathy and compassion are deeply connected to because we can't. empathize with somebody who's got a completely different lived experience than us if we aren't even interested in their story, in understanding their lived experience. and if curiosity has left, so is respect because those are deeply tied together, right? I can't respect you and your boundaries if I don't even know what they are. right? I can try to enforce what I think is respecting you on you. But unless it's actually informed, it's not respect. what I see is missing in toxic environments is curiosity, respect and accountability. And what I see showing up consistently in, cultures that consistently seek to, be healthy. And to value their people and contribute to their people's thriving so that they as an organization can thrive. Curiosity, respect and accountability are cultivated and honored and valued consistently.

So how could we begin practicing curiosity, respect, and accountability?

I think the important part is to start with curiosity, because like I said, their curiosity is connected to the other two. it really is the foundation of everything. one of the ways that I talk to people about is, starting with a curiosity walk, there's so much life around us that we take for granted, that we don't even acknowledge exists. And we also do not consciously acknowledge that we exist because it exists. That we exist because of other people. Overlapping interdependent ecosystems all life on earth exists because of all the other life. And we cause harm to one group of life. It has a ripple effect. that's part of why curiosity is so powerful and empowering empathy because we start to understand the interconnectedness of all life on earth. I love to go on a curiosity walk, and I encourage people to do this, whether you're just a human being or you're a leader, because quite frankly, you're probably both, there are always people looking to us for models to try to understand how to better navigate the world or accomplish something or whatever it is, Even if we're only leading our own life to go outside, take a walk. Right. Be present and find something either, you know, nothing about, right. Or what my favorite thing to do is to find something I've quote unquote known about my whole life and find three new facts. Like how does it benefit the world around it. especially if I've been taught like it doesn't have a place, right? So I've learned more about dandelions and about poison ivy and about honeysuckles. You know, there's like white and yellow ones. Those are definitely invasive. Not great. They really should be pulled out. But, but there's all kinds of other honeysuckles that I learned about that are native and indigenous that we could be planting and cultivating instead, right? but dandelions have been Beautiful purpose. You can eat the whole thing, right? You can use the, the roots for tea. The leaves have a bunch of vitamin K and are great for bone health. The flowers can be eaten as well. The whole thing has benefit to us. It also adds calcium into the soil. It helps with soil erosion. There's a whole bunch of things that dandelions benefit like benefit the soil and the world around us, but we've been taught to hate them and to root them out and that they shouldn't exist. I think it's a beautiful metaphor for us to start to recognize that there are value in things that even we've been taught or has been normalized to hate, including people. And so I think when we learn three new facts about something we quote unquote think we've known about our whole life, it starts to challenge our perception and worldview. It starts to challenge how much we actually know. and helps us to recognize that we've actually been in proximity to the world around us, not in relationship. And that the important shift is that we go from proximity to relationship.

What would you define as a relationship?

there's all kinds of relationships, right? But I think at the root of all of them, if it's truly healthy, there has to be curiosity, respect, and accountability. there has to be reciprocity, and there has to be consistency. It doesn't mean that there isn't a give and a take, But there are things that we can give in relationship that aren't tangible, One person might have a physical disability and can't contribute in one specific way or might have talents in certain areas. another person or persons might have strengths and talents and abilities in other areas. And it's about us contributing what we do have. It's about us recognizing that contributions are unique to us and us consistently investing those in the world around us, what we have to give, what we have to share. because you know, I hear just an example I like to share with people is like, you've heard about those people who got divorced and it was like amicable. You're not even really sure why they got divorced. Cause like, you'd never really saw them fighting. It didn't really seem like they didn't like each other, but then it comes to the divorce part and people are like, okay, but why? And they're like, well, because after a while we just started feeling your roommates. Right. and it's that. That right there, where you see curiosity left, they're no longer one or both people are no longer invested in being curious about one another. And it went from relationship to proximity, right? And there was no longer a sense of fulfillment. And it's actually quite lonely when you're in proximity to people and you're not in relationship with them. I think it's even lonelier than if you were just alone because being surrounded by people you want to be connected to can't. don't know how or they don't want to be connected to you. I mean, that's an incredibly lonely place to be. think it's really important that we recognize that relationship requires effort. have to be hard, but it does require effort and consistency.

How many roommates have you had in your life?

do you count family? so I, when I left at 20, Five. I lived with my grandfather for a year. at 26, I had two guy roommates who were firefighters slash EMTs. Then, I had another roommate who was like a truck driver or something. I knew him through a friend and then I lived with, a couple of women in Philly. and then I lived with another woman who was a business owner. So I've had quite a few roommates throughout my life.

So did it feel lonely?

When I lived with women, no.

So the guys just weren't as curious?

no. I think there was this element of them wanting to date me, which made it, awkward. so I needed to get out of the situation I was in and I knew the two firefighters slash, EMTs, they were pretty good. in my town and I had known them for years. And so I knew they had an extra bedroom and I just like moved in lived there for like a year, then needed to leave that situation because the guy who owned the house really wanted to date me. And I was like, I don't really want to date you. And so then moved in with, I knew someone else who was moving out of a condo, not that far away. And so I moved into that bedroom, but the same scenario kind of repeated. And then I was like, no more male roommates. I'm just going to live with women now. but it just happened that the first places I lived were with guy roommates. and then I swore that off. it was lonely with women or femme presenting persons or people who are non binary who, you know, have either done the work to recognize what relationship is and requires or have it. you know, generally been socialized to, to be allowed to have the deeper conversations. It's a very different thing, right? We're talking about our hopes, our dreams, our fears, our challenges, what we're reading, who we might've met this week, how we're feeling inspired. I mean, there's many levels and layers of conversation. when I lived with men, there was never that, the conversations were very, very surface, if at all, unfortunately.

How did you know that these women you moved in with were Genuinely curious.

I find that women in my life have been more curious, have been more invested in understood what relationship is, you know, that's in general, there's still conversations that have to be had. There's still conflict that comes up when you live with people, but when you're curious, when you're moving through conflict, right? It's a very different thing than when you are. assuming that everyone around you, is bad or wrong for not meeting your needs, right. Or so on and so forth.

Now, what about respect?

what do you mean? Like you want me to define it or.

did these women portray respect and accountability as well

so, I mean, they were roommates in my late twenties, right. This is a very long time ago. I was not doing the work that I'm doing now. Right. So I, I, I don't necessarily want to say that. I want that to be like a focus of the conversation. I'm happy to answer the question. I'm just not sure how it like relates specifically to, to this moment, the last decade of my life. But, you know, there was conversations that were had, right? We can, When you show up with curiosity and I'm like, Hey, you know, I'm moving in, I have some stuff. Do you guys mind if I reorganize the kitchen so that all of our stuff fits together? And then we can see what's duplicate and we can either store it or we can sell it. Right? Like there's a series of conversations that are had when you respect one another. get to know each other's wants, needs, desires, each other's boundaries. what is valuable and really important to one another? What are the non negotiables? There's all of these things that happen in conversations and they're not necessarily easy conversations to have. They're not necessarily without their tension, right? But in order to really be invested in relationship, we have to be willing to get uncomfortable. I'm not saying you have to be willing to endure harm. I'm saying you have to be willing to be vulnerable and vulnerability is uncomfortable and that has to be honored and valued by both or all people that are involved.

vulnerability?

I would say that it depends on the moment. It depends on, how vulnerable you want to be with someone or how safe you feel. Again, I think that's related to someone's, curiosity and respect and accountability. but I think vulnerability is us. Choosing to or being safe to share who we really are, with people around us, right? Desiring to truly be connected, right? If we're constantly protecting ourselves from the people around us, that's either an indication of, trauma on our part, right? or that we don't feel safe with that person. If we're not willing to be vulnerable with the people around us, if we're not willing to share our thoughts, wants and desires, if we, trivialize the impact of that, if we pretend that's not important, then we're not ready to be in relationship with the people around us sharing who we are, is fundamental. To people being able to actually be connected to us, you can't connect to you and you can't be connected to other people. If you aren't willing to share who you are, what inspires you, what gets you going in the morning, what you like and don't like, it's varying degrees of aspects of yourself.

How do you know if someone is sharing who they are?

I mean, typically it's based on the type of conversations, right? So like, I'm coming to you and I'm talking about, my business and how I feel about it and what's coming up and what I'm excited about, if I'm talking about, the new hobby that I'm exploring or the fact that I got back to, Boxing classes, or I started learning a new dance and it's about sharing when we share ourselves, other people can then start to see themselves in what we're sharing, right? We start to see points of connection. We start to see points of overlap, right? If somebody is keeping the conversation very surface level, They're not really talking about their thoughts, wants, fears, desires. Those are the things we typically are afraid of somebody judging us or on and so forth. Right. but we also have to be careful because you don't also want to go into like the verbal vomit realm, right? We've got to understand somebody else's boundaries, how much they want to know, so on and so forth. different relationships have different levels of depth. Right. not everybody is going to want to know your deepest, darkest fears, but they might be the person you call when you want to go and, have a super fun day. you know, there's different types of relationships that give and take in different ways, but we generally can feel it. We can feel when somebody is holding themselves back, we can feel when they don't want to share who they are. We can feel when all they have to talk about is like job, their car, their house, you know, and not in ways that are like, Oh, my God, this thing just broke. And I didn't know what I was going to do. And I had to like, find the contractor. And it was really stressful. and I felt really vulnerable because I didn't know how it was going to cause, like, it's how someone approaches a conversation and the levels at which they're willing to discuss, like how they feel about what's going on, not just what's actually going on.

So what is your business about

what I do is, mostly focused on public speaking. So I do, you know, I'm a keynote speaker. I've also facilitate workshops, and I do consulting around. Leadership and relationship. So what is intentional and ethical leadership? What is intentional and ethical relationship? What do they require? How does it empower our lives? Our leadership, our organizations, our communities? Why is that so important to us? Actually living joyful and fulfilled lives? sometimes I'm speaking at a conference to people who are working specifically on, personal development, but most of the time I'm talking to leaders inside of organizations or at conferences where there are, C suite level or, leadership level, individuals in the room. And we're having these conversations around how to better empower, their leadership through, ethical relationship with those they lead, which, drives innovation. It drives profitability. because if you don't have any basic understanding of relationship and you don't have that as a fundamental basis of your leadership, your people aren't going to feel empowered. They're not going to bring their creativity. They're not going to share their thoughts on innovation It's going to be stagnated inside your organization

we've talked a lot throughout this interview about both leadership And relationship. What do you think is the relationship between those two?

relationship. Right? So intentional and ethical. The most powerful version of leadership is us recognizing we are in relationship with the people we lead, whether that be directly one on one or whether it be through culture and the culture that we establish and those who are in leadership positions and how they influence and affect and further culture. Fundamentally, most of what our humanity is an understanding of relationship, understanding of interconnectedness with ourselves, with one another, with all of the living world.

What are your best client success stories?

there's so many. most of the time when I am working with a leader, The most powerful shift is when a leader begins to recognize, just how impactful they are and how their impact could be expanded beyond what it currently is, right? Because when you are the one who's the go to for everything, you have to know everything. You have to be in control of everything that is very limiting. When we have the conversation about what intentional and ethical leadership is and how expansive it is, and no longer has to fall on your shoulders as an individual person. That it probably never should have, right? That there's a community of people inside of your organization that you are leading and they have incredible insights. And this is about community effort, right? watching that shift, right. And what it empowers is truly incredible because now it frees up these lines of communication to further. Innovation to bring the conversation forward about what do I see that could, in fact, as the person working for a leader, what do I see as a possible revenue source as a way of tweaking a product we already sell that would open up or expand who we can sell it to Innovation exists at every different layer. Of what we do and how we bring it to market and who we connect with as our clients, et cetera. So, watching that shift from everything needing to be, driven by leadership as opposed to driven by a culture and a community of people working together. It's a really powerful shift.

So what is the future of this shift, your goals as a speaker?

I mean, we're watching organizations struggle financially, where the only way that they're increasing revenue is by increasing pricing. that has a ceiling to how far that can go. You can't just in for forever and ever increase pricing. That is not a good business strategy. We see wages being stagnated. We see organizations struggling to hire and hold onto talent, which is exceptionally expensive. So, you know, it becomes a conversation of shifting our leadership to investing in our people's thriving so they can invest in our thriving. And we've seen organizations that did this that said, okay, the base pay, the lowest we'll pay somebody is 70 K and then everything else, is increased, from there. We see organizations. Like gore and associates who are ESOPs and everybody's in associates and projects are moved forward through consensus and salaries are determined communally. We see these organizations thriving, driving innovation, right? That's the goal because innovation has been stagnated quite frankly, for a long time here in this country. we consider innovation is barely shifts in what we're already doing. True innovation is not something that's been driven for a while and organizations are struggling because of it. the goal is that we actually get to a place where we're re embracing one another, where we are connected to each other's humanity, where we are contributing to one another's thriving. So we are collectively thriving and contributing to the collective thriving. The goal is that we get to a place where organizations are once again, consistently driving innovation and profitability. Through innovation, through raising prices.

Well, thank you again for being on the show. Are there any final closing words you'd like to give to the audience before I let you off here?

I think the most impactful thing we can do is reconnecting to curiosity. And one of the things I clarify is that curiosity is not this, just the desire to know anything because that can lead us into confirmation bias. We can seek information that just deeper, digs us into our trenches, our ideological trenches. Instead, curiosity is, is the desire. How I define it is the desire to know someone or something as it is not as we want it to be. It's about recognizing its separateness from us and yet also honoring our interdependence. I would hope and, desire that people invest in curiosity in that way.

Okay. This is the Paris perspective. Thanks again for looking at the show.