Breaking the Chains of Colorism: Dr. Amy Alexander on Resilience, Identity, and Advocating for Change

0:01 All right, hello everyone. How's it going? Welcome back to the show. This is James Paris edition, and this will be episode 170 with Dr Amy Alexander, a general interview with her, and now we're going to focus more on a specialized topic regarding colorism generational trauma and a little bit of the research I've done and maybe some media and communications jargon that I'm somewhat familiar with relating to this topic too. For a unique twist, and after we're done discussing that, we'll get into the general interview and just discuss what's been said and again, I think it will be pretty good.

0:52 Let's get started. So, to start this off, we're going to be looking at colorism. So colorism is essentially a form of discrimination on skin color. It has a deep historical influence. It has an influence on societal power dynamics and it can be traced back to many historical contexts and its impact continues today in society. The origins of colorism it first started with colonial legacy. It's linked to the colonial era and it's basically the mistreatment and categorization of individuals on skin color. Generally, what you'll find again this is in a lot of communities, lighter skin individuals will receive more privilege than darker skin individuals.

1:44 Regarding cultural influences, it also is associated with historical perceptions of beauty specific to different communities, lighter-skinned people might be considered more beautiful than darker people. Now, the modern manifestations it's shown profusely in media, the workplaces and anywhere that's prevalent in society. Now, ways we could deal with colorism, it can be done through awareness, educating individuals about colorism, empowerment empowering individuals by showing them that they can embrace their unique forms of beauty.

2:27 And then, you know, advocating for policies to promote equality and also better or more fair treatment. So the media's role in perpetuating colorism first of all, it's representation Reinforcing biases. You see this all the time. First of all, it's representation Reinforcing biases. You see this all the time. A lot of times, usually in media or in positions of power, you might see lighter complexion, people, stereotypes. There are certain caricatures depending on people with darker skin tones, especially during the Jim Crow era, with blackface, you'll notice. There's that deep stereotype towards darker people, which in itself is wrong, but this is just how it was portrayed at the time.

3:13 Inclusivity so this is another one, and essentially, by creating a more inclusive environment, bringing together different colors of people, portraying that level of equality, that's another portion of it too. Additionally, people who might be on that spectrum of colorism, where they deal with those forms of oppression. It can affect self-esteem. It can also lead to psychological strain as well, and it could also lead to community dynamics. I think the psychological strain will be an interesting topic throughout this interview Because I think that's a topic that we will be hitting a lot of Due to the psychology experience.

3:58 Additionally, we're going to be looking at the historical context. So basically, colorism is rooted in a lot of things with significance, so it can be shaped in many different narratives. It's embedded in many societal structures. I at least know, from my experience in the Caribbean at least, my grandfather. He was very, very dark-skinned and he dealt with a lot of oppression. It was only until he actually got his PhD in biomedical engineering and became a huge professor at the University of the West Indies that he actually overcame that.

4:40 But again, it's these types of things that play a role. This is not something that's old and the reclamation of identity is a testament to the individuals in the face of systematic discrimination. So that's all kind of a part of what I mentioned. So gender it intersects with gender bias and it affects desirability and worth based on the general skin tone and empowerment efforts. You know, I think colorism can also play a role in maybe equalizing the genders a bit more, because the same way colorism can influence groups of people, it can also influence the way genders are perceived as well, especially amongst women, you could imagine.

5:31 So education and advocacy. So implementing educational programs to address colorism is also important, teaching people about its scholarly research, understanding the different aspects of it, and other efforts too. Now, this is when we kind of go into a different area here. So what is the spiral of silence? The spiral of silence is basically a media communication theory that states that if you are within a certain minority, you're going to have a smaller chance of being able to speak out about a specific issue.

6:12 So, for example, if you live in a very conservative area and you might have a certain belief system, like you're a pro-choice, because you're the minority in that area, you're going to have a stronger likelihood of being silent about the particular issue. This same problem propagates as well with colorism too. Because of societal pressures, because of fears of not conforming to society, people don't want to speak up about color colonies, they don't want to talk about it at length, and it leads to problems such as this, because the number one reason why we can't go back to actually addressing the issue is because a lot of people know it's true, but they're afraid to speak out about it because they believe in the sense that they're the minority.

7:01 So, yeah, they believe in the sense that they're the minority. So yeah, that was sort of the general gist of what I've personally studied. But, again, dr Alexander is a bit more of an expert on this, so we'll have her opinion on this and, yeah, we'll continue discussing. Okay, so how are you today? I'm doing well. How about you? Doing great. So what's your opinion so far on all this? I agree with what you've put before us.

7:48 I think this goes way back before even America existed, to you know, to Europe, and it has infected, like every culture, almost. When I think about Indians and I mean Indians like from Pakistan and India, those Pakistanis in different areas I remember speaking to people about skin tone from their cultures. Again, lighter is is so much more of value to them because it's closer to what Europeans look like and has been held as the standard of beauty and what we all at some point aspire to or thought we should aspire to, I mean all of us. Everywhere colonialism has happened, there's color colorism. Look at South Africa, look at even, like you were talking about, the West Indies and those areas.

8:31 I think in the last few years we're coming to realize those and when I say few, like maybe 20, 15, 20 years, we're coming to realize that that's not the case and that's not true. I remember as a little girl I was trying to, I was trying to, but I remember looking at, like Ebony and Essence Magazine, this little girl in the 80s and just seeing light-skinned women and my mother's the one who actually pointed it out like light-skinned women were on the cover a lot more often than dark-skinned women or even brown-skinned women, you know, and they had a lot of European features.

9:13 So this is what we also were used to looking at and seeing and valuing right without even knowing it. And you think about the doll test. Do you remember that? The two doctors, the social workers who did the test, the doll test with the white doll and the black doll asking black children what was prettier, was this one smarter or was this one dirty or bad or good? So these things have been reinforced again for generations and that's the trauma we see like black today. If you want me to go into this, today we see these like the Crown Act and different things like that for hair that people have fought for, to wear their own natural hair in spaces of professionalism and stuff like that.

9:54 But for the most part we see Black women walking around with straightened hair right, artificially straightened hair, as in getting a relaxer, getting it straight and blown out out stuff like that. And that's part of the trauma of being not considered attractive in this in this nation, and then I know it goes on in other places outside of America. But I can only speak to hear what I've experienced, and so I Think it's again generations of being taught one thing and now we're beginning to try to unlearn right and relearn the right way, hopefully, about color and and the caste system and all the things that we've kind of just taken for granted up until recently.

10:45 I also want to say May is Mental Health Awareness Month. I have my little pin on right here, so maybe people could take a little bit of time to learn something about mental health that they might not do otherwise, so this is perfect timing for us. Excellent. You know what's your opinion on colorism and sort of the way it played a role in your life specifically. I think that people I remember being young girls would say well, you think you're cute? I'd be like, how do they know what I think? And I didn't think I was cute.

11:27 I still don't think I'm cute, but I remember telling my mother and her saying well, amy, that's their insecurities and that's their. And I'm in elementary school I don't fully comprehend these things, but as I've grown older and had more experiences and learned more, of course I see the pain, you know, of a lot of dark-skinned Black women. The things that they've been subjected to that I have not experienced. I look at, I think about, like Lil' Kim the rapper, kimberly Denise Jones, and how, the progression of her transformation from what she naturally was a beautiful Black woman to what she is now and I wish I had pictures of what she looked like when she was younger I've seen it.

12:23 I've seen it, I know what you're talking about Any surgery. Yeah, and I think, again, that's part of the trauma of not feeling accepted, of not being okay in a society that values a more narrow nose, thinner lips, straight hair, a thin body and that's just naturally not really most Black women's aesthetics. We don't look like that and we've been taught that that's not pretty. So, yeah, yeah, it's a deep, insidious thing, you know, and I believe that a lot of Black women struggle with their hair.

13:05 You know comes from that. And it's odd, james, because back in antebellum times Black women were forced to, like, put their hair up because it was so beautiful and the white women were kind of intimidated by it and jealous of it and they didn't want their men being attracted to it. So that's where those like bonnets and you know things, things kind of originated is to hide our hair. Um, and I think we're still in a lot of ways doing that, not physically, but right, theoretically and psychologically. We're getting and I've, you know, had relaxers, I've had things done to my hair, have it blown out.

13:46 You know, sometimes I like a straight and I don't think that's always a. You know you're traumatized, so you're just wearing your hair like that sometimes it is aesthetic, but I would like black women, especially little black girls, to know you can wear your hair out natural and and and you're, and you're beautiful. You know you're, you're beautiful. I see, know you're beautiful. I see a lot more of that and a lot more Afros these days and I'm glad it's unfortunate that we have to make laws, though, so black women can wear their hairstyles. You know, and even when we think about it, it affects every part. Remember the young black swimmer. She couldn't use the swimming cap that she needed for her hair to say, you know, because it wasn't regulation or whatever.

14:31 So it affects so many areas of life, um, but I'm glad that it's changing. I'm just sad that it's taken so long and that it takes laws to actually, you know, make this happen. It's insane. Excellent. And, you know, do you think colorism also plays a role when it comes to a discussion we had before in our last talk about generational trauma? I absolutely do, because think about enslavement. Think about and this is the part where I actually feel sad for some of the white women who had to endure this but their husbands were, you know, making babies with enslaved women, right?

15:20 So you could tell the lighter skinned kids, you know, and they look like your husband coming into your house because they had the privilege right. So you could tell the lighter skin kids, you know, and they look like your husband coming into your house because they had the privilege right of being a little bit more protected than those who were not produced by the masters or overseers or, you know, owners or plantation owners. So it started way back. I mean I'm sure it was before that, but here in this country it's been going on for so long. I mean, they separated us by our skin tone and sometimes it was because our fathers were, you know, the owners of the plantation, but other times it was just because they saw value in being lighter. So I think, yes, it has affected all Black people, to be honest, in this country, and I think it certainly has affected me, because as a child and even as an adult, people are always asking me what are you?

16:15 I'm sure a lot of people get that question, but I don't know why it's so important and significant for the hierarchy you know that's been created in this nation and really race is just a kind of and biology are theoretical right, they're human conceptions, they're man-made things, because there's really no biological difference in people of different races. Biology I'm talking about. There is a biological difference. There are physical manifestations that are different, like skin tone and hair color, hair texture, things like that, but it affects the whole system.

16:59 I mean, think about the history of this country. It's so based in a hierarchy of race that we don't even realize sometimes how deep it is. It's so deep that and I think you might have read some of my dissertation, but I talk about racial identity development and there are theories of that, like how Black folks and they have ones for biracial people and white they have the racial identity development models and theories. But there are stages that a lot of Black folks go through in order to get to who they are and one is like when you realize that you're actually not valued by this country, even though you're a citizen.

17:42 You know, like James Baldwin said, you're in America but you're not American. You don't get to experience the benefits of being an American. And there's one that I use in my dissertation particularly. It's called Nigressence and Dr William Cross came up with that in the 1970s and there are like five steps to Nigressence. And the first one is a pre-encounter where you're kind of, you get introduced to the white dominant culture and you think you're a part of it, right, and so you try to fit in and you're largely unaware of what is race and racial things cause.

18:22 You're a child and the one that changes things is encounter. And I can pinpoint for me, um, there have been, I guess, many moments. But and even for my daughters you know, um, you remember that moment when you knew you were black, when someone said something to you or where you weren't included in a situation or people didn't value your insight or your input, like I mean. You know, whenever that happened, right, and you realize I'm not like these people, I'm not ever going to fit in fully with white folks, and that's kind of a hard thing to experience and to go through.

19:07 But it's the reality that you can never be truly American because America does not accept you as you are. So, yeah, there's like immersion and immersion, internalization and internalization and commitment. So those are the other steps of my aggressions. But people can look that up and figure it, you know. But the point being that many people have looked into and studied this process, right Of us becoming black, of realizing in that moment that I am never going to be like these other folks, these other Americans, because I'm Black and I'm different and I'm going to be treated differently.

19:53 And oftentimes, you know, I want to say, when I was taking a sociology class in undergrad school, we were talking about skin tone and different things like that, and the professor said well, sometimes companies will hire the darker skinned people because they stand out more and it just shows that, hey, we're diverse and we're welcoming everyone. So it can work many ways. And I think again, the dominant culture knows how to kind of manipulate and maneuver those things in order to kind of make us feel a little bit comfortable in some spaces and to make themselves look like they're helpful when they're not.

20:39 That does make sense, makes sense. Speaking of companies, what's your opinion on companies maybe prioritizing or hiring specific minorities more often because of maybe colorism or other factors such as this? Do you think it's a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Or maybe colleges maybe furring minorities in general? What's your thoughts on that? Are you speaking about, like how the word is escaping you right now? But preference in terms of race, yeah that's what I'm asking. I can't think of the word, but those things.

21:21 I think this country owes us that. If you want to know the truth, I think this country owes us that. If you want to know the truth, I think this country I just saw an article how, like, the government took like $6 billion from Black folks through taxes and different methods of kind of taking wealth from our community. You know, when you talk about Black Wall Street and Greenwood and those things, they when white society and this doesn't include every white person. I'm talking about just the system, not individual people. When they saw us doing well, they destroyed what we built. So, yeah, I think I think they owe us more than 10% of you know we're talking about affirmative action.

22:04 That's the word I couldn't think of. When we're talking about those things, I mean I believe in reparations that we built. Our ancestors built this country literally, and in many ways I'm talkingks some people. And then those people irk my soul. They think that Black folks and Brown folks are getting hired because of their skin tone or because of their ethnic, you know, background or heritage, when really we're being hired because in the past, even though we were qualified and perhaps even more qualified than the person, the white person, who got the job.

22:46 We didn't get the job. So just because you see somebody in affirmative action or or in a racial minority preference situation, that doesn't mean we're unqualified. It means that you know America or some corporations or some entities are actually trying to make up for the disparities that have happened in the past. People forget about that, you know. People forget about and I don't want to even get too much into this but the history of Israel and how, you know, the Jews and I am Jewish got that piece of land that they're now fighting over. That they've been fighting over, you know, with Palestine, and it's just people forget that things were given and taken unfairly through violence, right and oppression, and so I think you know we should get more than 10% if they set aside, and the Supreme Court is doing all they can today to make sure that it seems like that Black folks don't get the same level of education.

23:53 You know they're making it difficult for folks to vote, which is extremely important in my mind. So I think colorism is yes, there are people who make it. There are people who get jobs and get positions and, I'm sure, a lot of people doing the hiring and doing the acceptance of people into certain programs or educational spaces, are not necessarily conscious of the people that they're choosing. But it is easier to choose somebody who looks like you or somebody who you believe has more in common with you than other people that you've interviewed or talked to or something like that. We all like pretty people and if we associate being light with pretty, that's a privilege right there and I recognize my proximity to whiteness and that I I'm sure I have privilege and I've had privilege in spaces that you know before I was pretty well educated I didn't realize.

24:53 But yeah, I mean I'm sure it plays, if not a you know kind of obvious role, at least an indirect space, you know kind of an unconscious thing about skin tone. So why is it that? What is your opinion on, maybe, the way colorism can affect? Oh, I forgot my question. I was yeah, yeah. I went on too long I completely. Okay, go ahead. I was going to go on to a kind of other topic or something. Yeah, but I think you know what I was thinking of was generally how colorism can actually be fixed.

25:46 How do you think colorism can actually be dealt with in a positive way to kind of overcome this issue, and do you think it could be done in an ethical way or a way that's actually possible? I mean, I think honestly, like I think all it has to start in the Black community. It has to start with us, because it is us and, as I say, with trauma you might be traumatized. It's not your fault but now it's your responsibility to address it so that you can heal from it and move on. I think Black folks can fix this. I think we need to be educated and get in our mind that there's no really such thing as a light-skinned thing and how we associate you know, I don't know certain things with that and how we associate certain things with being dark-skinned.

26:29 You know these are all residuals of enslavement and all the things that came after that in our system. You know Jim Crow convict leasing institutional discrimination. I mean, there's thing after thing after thing. So I think when we change our language somebody else I was talking to somebody else earlier today and they used a word and I can't remember what it was but words are really important. They're not just like things that interchange with anything. I mean, and I believe people kind of say what they mean but I think the language that we use in the black community around race and color needs to change, because when we start changing our language, then we communicate with our young people the ways that we want them to think and grow up.

27:32 I think, yeah, it can be changed and healed and addressed, but I don't think white people can do it. I don't think white people are even interested in doing it. I don't even think they have a deep understanding of how it affects us in the black community. So it has to start with us. We have to stop saying the things that we say around race. Somebody the other day called me a red bone and I was like, can we just like call me my name or something. But, um, so the language is important. The language, the way that we talk to our children, um, the things that we teach them.

28:14 And I do see a lot more of that these days. To be honest, I see a lot of beautiful, amazing, dark-skinned Black women racing the pages of, you know major magazines and being in you know high fashion shows, you know. So things are changing and, yes, I think it can heal, but I don't think we can look to, I don't think we can look to any community outside of ourselves honestly to address the things that we experience, because only we experience it and I think, like Native Americans or indigenous peoples. Their experience to me is the closest to black folks experience their journey, but and even in that, it's still very different.

28:57 So, yes, I think I have hope for that, that it can be addressed and healed. I think, though, I don't have a plan for that, but I think it has to start with us, like everything else has to start with us. We cannot depend on outside entities and, yes, they can be allies and they can be supportive, but we must change. We must change, and that's the problem, because it's been hundreds of years we've been in this mindset, right, I feel like I just want to travel all over the country and talk to people individually, and just, you know, come on, let's do this, but I do have hope it can change. Excellent and let's kind of take a back step to maybe food stamps and maybe the way those might affect the community as a whole.

29:48 I mean, if you've heard of food deserts before where in certain locations food sources might be lower, there might be issues regarding food, like I think, for example I think I was reading some type of research how Safeway, for example, in maybe a location where I'm in, it might be a lot more higher level but in the more majority black area the Safeway is much more lower quality and higher price, yeah, yeah exactly. You know that, lower quality of goods, those types of things. What's your opinion on all of that? There's actually a neighborhood here in the city of Pittsburgh that has experienced that and had like a grocery store come in and then they were only there a very short period of time and left.

30:35 I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if people think that people who are kind of going through living in low socioeconomic status don't deserve certain things or don't need certain things or don't value certain things. And I think that also could be connected to enslavement and those times because Black folks got what to eat when they were enslaved the leftovers, the scraps, the stuff their masters and overseers didn't want, right? So that's how they made different dishes, like chitlins. I don't know if you've ever eaten chitlins or if you ever smelled them cooking, but they stink to high heaven to me.

31:23 But that's the intestines of the pig. But if all you have is that what is left over after everybody else gets what they get, then that's what you're used to, right. And I think oftentimes corporations and businesses like who own grocery stores and things like that, think that they'll, you know, have a high level of loss because of stealing. I think that their insurance might be high in some areas where there's high crime and oftentimes inner city areas, have those numbers that corporations and insurance companies look at, but also not realizing that those things are also a manifestation of trauma and of not getting what we were promised and not getting what we deserve in this country.

32:23 So I think it takes a very special company to kind of go into a space like that and create a world where there are fresh produce items, where know fresh vegetables at reasonable prices, where they're not stocked all the time with all the sugar-filled things. And yeah, I think it's a hard decision for a company. But I also think that if companies go into these communities and talk with them and get their input as to what they would like in a space, that they could get people on board and that they would be invested and they would have some type of connection right as a stakeholder in that plate, in that grocery store, being in their community and be proud of it.

33:13 You know, and not to mention just basic convenience, because oftentimes if you don't have a lot of money then you might not have transportation. You know, and not to mention just basic convenience, because oftentimes if you don't have a lot of money then you might not have transportation. You know how do you get your food. And then we get into all these. You know, grocery delivery, I know groceries get delivered. I went grocery shopping this morning. I don't want anybody to deliver, I'm going to touch what I buy and I want to see what it is. But so sometimes people get into and then that affects the financial thing which you were talking about earlier. Right, because there's not enough money to kind of do all these things, um, but you gotta eat, um. So I think that's just part of that, is just a part of the, the big kind of system that keeps people.

33:57 And it's not even just race, you know, it's people who are living in poverty, you know, regardless of race, who cannot seem to get ahead. Because it reminds me of sharecropping, right. Whenever Black folks were, you know, freed by the Emancipation Proclamation, they had nowhere to go, they had nothing to do. They had I mean, they had no land. So what they did was what? Rent spaces of land off of their probably former owners, and the owners, of course, said, well, this land is going to cost you this to raise this, and then you buy the goods. The goods are probably higher even back then, like they are a neighborhood, you know, with low socioeconomic status today. So then you got this high rate of interest because you just got, you know, free.

34:43 Where do you have money? Did you save money? I mean, were you getting paid? No, so again, people forget the start line for black folks is way back here, you know, and they expect us to be equal in many ways with them, when we haven't even been given the resources that we were promised, by the way, by the United States government to be able to function, to be able to make a life for ourselves, to be able to create generational wealth for our children. Pieces of the structure and and for me, you know, I just, we need people, we need warriors, really, in each of these spaces, and I've been fortunate enough to connect with some people who have, I believe, our warriors, who are fighting for equity, and long-term equity in places of like finance and education is medicine in communication.

35:38 So it's to take a lot. I mean, there's still people, as you see, in this world, hanging on to those old ways. They just want to go back to the good old days, and I cannot help but think that that is related to race. I'm just going to say it. It's racism. I'm not even going to try to couch it anymore. You know, just out and out racism. The people want the good old days to return and for Black folks and other people of color to not reach our full potential, and that's a problem and we have to fight. And it irks me too also when people say, well, I'm not into politics. Well, in order to sustain a democracy, we all have to be into politics. That's the very essence and basis of what a democracy is is the citizens being informed and controlling who gets the power through their vote.

36:28 I know there have been obstacles and I know there are things that have been put in our way on purpose, but there have also been people who have fought those things, regardless, if you agree, how they fought those things. They fought um, and and sometimes we just, you know, kind of take advantage of that um or take it for granted. Let me say that, uh, but every system, every system, you know, the food deserts are sometimes on purpose. I'm going to tell you something I went to. I live in a decent area, community, right, so I go to the wines and spirits store. They have all the shelves set up and everything, and it's nice.

37:09 And you know, I have a certain thing that I buy. So I bought it. One day I was driving my daughter somewhere and it was a, you know, less privileged neighborhood, let's say it that way. So I went to a liquor store. I was like, oh, where's my thing? I found my, my little wine that I liked, and it was like more money there. It was more money in the less privileged neighborhood, same store, you understand, like same company. And so it's not just something that's in the past, it's today, and there's all types of ways that people are being oppressed and being kind of almost picked at little by little, so that you give up fight.

38:01 That we experience it's like exhausting to. You know, try to explain my hair or my heritage, or how I got my job or why I look like this, or you know different things, and I've just kind of stopped engaging in that. I do like having serious conversations with people around these, these things, but not the ones who just antagonistic. You know I'm not being roped into or sucked into that type of interaction anymore. If you want to know something, you know you can go pick up a book or you can google it or whatever. But that you know. Yeah, every system, everyone, and again, that's why I left education.

38:43 I just could not. It was not benefiting the students that I served and I had I think the school I was at was about 73, 75, 76% Black students. We had students from Africa, we had students from various other places, many of Asian descent and, of course, white students, a lot of whom were living in poverty wasn't serving any of them, as far as I can tell. Perhaps the ones that are way, way up, the ones that are capable of doing AP, calc, they might've been insulated somewhat from some of the discrepancies and discrimination and they might've benefited somehow from the education.

39:33 But I think really the socialization part of education, and now people I don't know just don't feel comfortable with us reading about history, so those books can't be read, fortunately, that is. People have not, you know, tried to be that radical to ban books and things like that that I know of. But you know, we're trying to. The system is trying to. We're trying to. The system is trying to diseducate us or trick us into believing that a lot of things didn't happen is in our mind and I think that's the way we live daily too. Like is that in my head? Did they just say something racist to me and I'm overreacting or I think we all have struggled with that, like somebody says something, does something.

40:20 Later on we're thinking should I have said something? Was that racist, or was it just me feeling? you know, whatever I feel, but even that adds stress and anxiety to us as Black folks. Just because people want to touch our hair, you know what I mean, or say something crazy. You know what I mean or say something crazy, and we have to kind of process that right and sometimes we internalize it because we feel bad if we didn't say something right and or we, you know. It's just a daily struggle, all those little things. And again, I think I told you last time research shows that those daily stressors that Black folks and other people of color live with are more impactful in terms of health and longevity of life than like one huge incident.

41:08 Because every day, you know, we expect it almost it's almost expected when you you know somebody's going to do something or say something today, and I'm rarely wrong about that. How do you think colorism played a role while you were in the educational system? And do you think that may have played a role in the fact that you wanted to leave, no matter how small that reason may have been compared to maybe a grander reason? I'll tell you. Sometimes I think I need to learn how to turn my phone. Sometimes I think that it made people hesitate, like Black folks, to trust me.

41:52 And it reminded me of the 1960s and I remember I think I told you the woman was saying you know, light skinned people were suspect, cause they were wondering if you know, what are you here for and are you gonna infiltrate, you know, in our system, and things like that. But so I think I had to earn people's trust and I'm okay with that, you know, I'm completely okay with that. I think it. I was asked a lot by students what are you? You know, mainly students, not necessarily my colleagues or adults. And again that question like that, that's something that makes me think a lot, a lot deeper than I think what people asking the question understand.

42:42 But I believe I had to kind of earn people's trust in that space. I think sometimes people thought, oh, she's trying to be white because I wanted more education, and again that slave mentality that we have not yet overcome kicks in. And just because I want, you know, advanced degrees or want to be better educated doesn't make me closer to white or wanting to be white. I've had people ask me like you know, like kids, if there was a race war, what side would you be on? I don't know, I don't know. I don't know, but I have had conversations with students around colorism and being light or being dark.

43:32 I've been told that I'm not black enough in those spaces and you know, I've had my feelings hurt in those spaces too. And I don't know if, again, people consciously understand that they're choosing someone light skin, overinned, over someone dark-skinned. I think they just think this is a better person oftentimes, you know, this is more qualified, but those lies of you know, of our history fill their head too. So it's really hard to be objective in those spaces and, honestly, white folks who really want to be equitable, really want to be allies and advocates, you know, because ally, I think you know you're saying you're standing with us, you know.

44:27 But advocates actually do something right, they actually take action. You know we need those, we need allies, we need advocates, but we need people who are really willing to consciously make an effort to change their minds and there's not a lot of people out there like that. In fact, the systems don't wanna change because they wanna maintain their power. Right, the state says you gotta have this training on trauma, so they bring me in as the expert on trauma. But one visit or two visits to an institution doesn't change things.

45:11 It doesn't. And sometimes that's my dilemma, you know. But I don't know what people think when they see me today, if you know they, I think I've had to make it clear a lot of times that I was Black. Early on in my life. People would say things to me. Educators would say things to me about kids. I just excuse my mouth fucked to me about kids. Like, just excuse my mouth fucked up things about kids. And these are kids, you know. Like they're just going to end up in jail. For you know, if it was my kid, if it was a white kid, they wouldn't have gotten away with that.

45:52 Or you know, I mean I've been told I favor the black kids. I've been told you know a lot of things, but just because I'm white does not mean that you can talk to me wrong about black folks. And you know. So sometimes I have to make that very clear that I'm not you and I'm not with you on that. And again, that's fascinating because when you talk about colorism it also kind of goes into this idea that you know you occasionally get thrown on the fence if you, you know you're not really thrown into either category. And I'm just curious though how does that make you feel as a person when people say those things?

46:37 Because I mean me personally. I've never really been in that situation where I've been thrown on that fence. It's funny, because with my appearance a lot of people would say I'm too black or something along those lines. But with you, you know, it's sort of we're not really thrown onto either side. So how does that kind of make you feel? I could imagine it's. It hits you in a different type of way and you probably can relate to a very small, unique group of people, I could imagine. I think, like when we talk about racial identity development and we talk about biracial people, there is a choice group and categorization and things like that.

47:25 And I think we, we, we make choices. And I'll say me, since we're talking about me, I just really never. I'm sure there's issues of rejection. I mean I know there are for me around race and identity and things like that, because I told you like I was disinvited to birthday parties, you know, couldn't go into the pool, even though my mom took me into the pool of the local amusement park when it was there. But but I think I'm sorry it's a lot, I chose early on. I chose early on that I was going to identify as Black, not early early, but you know, and I've had conversations with my mom, you know, whenever she was alive and she was like but why do you reject me?

48:12 Why do you reject my heritage and my side? And, mommy, it's not like rejecting you. I'm just moving into a space where I feel most comfortable. And I mean that when I say that I could not imagine being a white woman. I couldn't imagine. I don't even identify as biracial, I identify as Black. That is where my spirit is, that's where my soul is, I believe. So some of us biracial people make a choice, you know, and some biracial people get mad because others of us make a choice. I've seen siblings who one was identified as Black and another would identify as biracial or white or something. You know, same parents, just their appearance was, you know, somewhat different.

48:58 But yeah, I remember having to change my race in college, like they used to give us these things you fill out your name and you know your dorm room and your religion and different things like that and race, and I don't know if I left a blank or I had to put black and I think the professor or somebody might've checked it for me if I left a blank or I had to put black, and I think the professor or somebody might've checked it for me because I left it blank. So when I applied for a specific scholarship that was for black students only, they were like wait, you're not black. So I was like, yes, I am. So they said well, on your paperwork it says you're white. So I had to go to the office, whatever the you know, student affairs or whatever and change my race to qualify for that scholarship, specific scholarship.

49:45 I remember that somebody else put white for me because I guess they thought I was white. So and that's just another, that little incident right there. You know how long we could talk about that. At least you and I could. Somebody decided for me, right, what I was, taking my power, my autonomy away. And so that's just one little moment or incident of something. And I know black folks go through this all the time and that's where the stress comes from, like why do I got to go do extra work if somebody decided to choose for me what I am and oftentimes that's what colorism does, right.

50:29 Well, you're light-skinned, so you must be that. Or you're dark-skinned, so you must be that. And again, dark skinned, so you must be that. And again, all this goes right on back to enslavement and antebellum times and it's traumatizing. It is traumatizing if you ever heard of uh, I used to teach it in class too um, there was a, a letter, um written, and and I guess some people are saying it's fake or whatever that it wasn't really written by this gentleman who wrote it, but his first name was James, but I can't think of the last name, but he was supposedly hired, he owned land in the West Indies, he was a slave owner and he would come and talk to the slave.

51:12 Know the slave owners of Virginia and the other colonies. You know that held slaves and tell them how to control their slaves and different things like that, and that was one of the things pit them against each other. Make sure that the light-skinned people, the light-skinned enslaved people, don't trust the dark-skinned enslaved people. Make sure that you separate men and women so they can, you know, work together and communicate so they don't trust each other. It was all part of and even if that, let's say that's not real, that necessarily isn't like that person didn't exist, but that theory and that theme and those tactics did exist. When you think about how they abused Black men with battle royale, that drives me insane.

51:58 When they used to tie a hand, one hand, behind the child, a young person's back and blindfold them and put them in this space with another Black child or Black man and make them beat the crap out of each other. You know when they used to use, you know, darker skinned Black men to kind of. You know to produce, to engage with various women, to produce bulls or what the masters thought would be strong, useful slaves. You know, yeah, and the light-skinned women were subject to, you know, a whole bunch of things with their slave masters and overseers.

52:40 And yeah, it's just, it's so massive to me that sometimes it seems overwhelming. And when we talk, you kind of ask me questions that really take me to places that I had in some ways forgotten about or put in my subconscious. I like that time when somebody chose, I mean, and when I back then I didn't even interpret it that way, but as we were talking right now, I did and that's trying to take somebody's power away from them, you know, of their own choices do you think colorism has changed since the time you've been around to now?

53:25 maybe when you look at your daughter's lives or future kids' generations' lives, because I've even heard like in 2050 at least, white people might actually become the new minority. So these perspectives have begun to change, at least with my father. When he was pursuing his PhD, he dealt with a lot of racism. I mean, I still dealt with a small amount of it, but it wasn't as much to his degree and I think it had less to do with my appearance, because we look the same, obviously, at least my dad but it had more to do with, maybe, the time and the generations moving forward.

54:07 It might. Now, you know, racism might be more of a covert thing. Polarism might be more of a covert thing. That's also a factor too. That was a bit of a big question. Yes, I think things have changed. I think there's a lot more awareness about how we've been treated and what we've been taught to believe and think. I absolutely do and I'm happy for that. I see I had this book I'm sorry I can't remember all the names, but it's called the Color of Water. I can't remember the author, but he found out that he was black and he explored that kind of part of his life and it was.

54:50 It was fascinating. Like was an adult, I believe, when he discovered that. But I was thinking and somebody said to me a long time ago I wish everybody was your color, like, if everybody was just kind of in in the same hue and color tone and just like all people were treated the same. And you know, I don't know that we'll ever get there. I don't know that humanity will ever get there. I'm hoping so. I do see changes in terms of, like I said, the covers of magazines. I see high fashion models and places of power and people even honoring, like through social media, dark-skinned women and and dark-skinned men as well.

55:39 But I think dark skinned men have a different journey and I, you know, honestly, can't speak to that directly. But yes, there's change and I hope there is more change. Um, is it coming fast enough? No, it isn't, but it's coming. But again, it takes like raising people, because it's generations, you see, like this generation, let's say. They get the notion, they get the idea that, hey, stuff needs to change and they actually work at changing things. Then they can raise their children, you know. But there's still the past. There's still people here who obviously want something different, they want white superiority and they're fighting hard to keep it that way, unfairly, per usual, through cheating and changing the rules after the game starts and all that stuff.

56:28 But I do see and I think this is part of my charm, if I have any that I really am a hopeful person and I think it took that to do my job. Kids failing classes, students failing classes and getting in trouble in various ways and people giving up on them, and I just I would not give up on one of my students and I don't want to give up on humanity as a whole. I want us to, you know, fill our purpose and be great. But we need at least a generation or two to kind of clean out the old right and get rid of those old ideas, the residue of inequality and it's powerful too.

57:19 Right, it's generational, and white folks too, and they might not even know it. I'm not blaming them. Like Booker T Washington said, he felt bad kind of, and it wasn't like, oh, I feel bad for them, so bad for them. But he didn't admire white people for having now because they didn't know how to do anything. Their enslaved people did all their stuff. So, after you know, there was no slavery. He was saying man, they're not going to know how to do anything for themselves. Sorry, in that sense, not. Oh, I feel so sorry for them. Let me go help them. But, um, so there's generations of white racial identity that need to be addressed also.

58:02 So I think it's going to take a few generations to get to the place where it doesn't matter. Um, but we're not there yet. And you know you're so right because, let me be dead honest with you I was kind of shaking my head a bit when you mentioned I wish everyone could look like you, because I think from a more societal standpoint you know that might be true, like it might be better, but it also exposes a really sad truth that I've seen, you know, among a lot of people in the community and it's called self-hatred and that one really tends to irritate me. Like I'll be honest with you, there was a certain person I'm not going to say her name that I interviewed on this show and she was talking about she hated how dark her skin was because she thinks the lighting is bad and is it bright enough?

58:56 And you know it was. It was upsetting to me because, at least from a more social standpoint, from my perspective, I think it's important that we're all proud of who we are as people. Even even though oppression and that stuff is a thing, and even though all of this societally is true, personally we should see ourselves a certain type of way. But how do we get that vision of ourselves if nobody's? telling us that? What if? our parents are infected by that idea that darker is ugly. And you know, like you know, god to son, make sure you cover up, you know, so you don't get. You know, son, don't get darker. I know you've heard people say that Like I'm going to wear a hat and it's not because of, like, skin cancer or things like that, it's because they don't want darker skin.

59:44 I mean people intentionally married light skinned people. Like I'm light skinned, I want to marry a light skinned person. To marry a light skinned person, you know, back in the day, because they didn't want their kids to be dark. What type of shit is that? You know? I mean it is. It is terrible that we are so. We've been just so hurt. We've been so hurt as a people that that young lady and there's probably thousands and thousands like her didn't want to be in her skin. And how does she know how to feel good about herself if no one's ever told her that, if she's grown up being made fun of and talked about? Because I've heard people you know, say really horrible jokes about skin.

1:00:24 And you know, I don't know if you know the you're so black thing, but that was out when I was a kid and you know I used to laugh at it and think it was funny. You know I'm I don't know nine, 10 years old or something like that, but it's just sad and I get what you're saying, james. We all should have that. We should. But maybe she didn't have that love and support and somebody telling her that she was good enough. Maybe she kept hearing she isn't good enough and that's what she's internalized. I want her to love herself, just like you do. But I think back to generations and what was told to her mom and what was told to her mom's mom and what they put into her process and her spirit.

1:01:15 You know, sometimes you know therapy. I have a shirt that says go to therapy. I think everybody should, yeah it's not because I have some weird, weird incidents. it was I was at the grocery store, I told you, this morning, and a man came up to me. It was like this like earlier I ran to somebody I knew and he was like was he a football player? Was he a stealer? He used to play football, yes. And me, it was like like earlier I ran into somebody I knew and he was like was he a football player? Was he a stealer? I said he used to play football, yes, and whatever. And he was like well, what do you do? And so I told him and we talked and I gave him some information. I led him to some websites about mental health and black therapists in the Pittsburgh area and things like that, and he thanked me. Area and things like that. And he thanked me. But people just need right and they don't even know.

1:01:57 And this man was 72 years old and he said I think I might need this when we were talking about therapy. I mean I'll stand there with him for like 10 or 15 minutes talking about this, but I'm hopeful, things like that. Like I didn't know that man, I might never see that man again. But he stopped me in a grocery store and was, like you know, having a conversation and he realized and I hope he follows through that he might need therapy at 72, and we talked about generational trauma and and different things in those moments that we shared together. So, yeah, I'm, I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful, I'm eternally hopeful.

1:02:38 I think the reason why, too, is that you know I've personally, you know like in my years of running this podcast I've interviewed a lot of therapists and you sort of have that type of personality that most of the therapists that I've interviewed have that sense of openness you could tell me anything, I won't really judge you too much. Let's sit down and let's talk about this. You tend to have that type of personality, so I'm not shocked, but something that's coming to my mind now is more so. Do you think you know we need therapists now that might specialize in issues regarding generational trauma, race, these types of things?

1:03:26 Because I feel like there's certain things again, don't get, don't get wrong, but I think there's certain things you can offer to maybe a person of color as a therapist, compared to a regular, traditional therapist, if you know what I mean. Yes, and that was really part of my dissertation. That's part of the like we have to do a section of future research possibilities right? So, and also, how is this going to benefit our community? And when I say our community, I mean mental health providers and things like that. So part of my goal was to have generational trauma be explored by potential therapists or aspiring therapists. You know, whether it's social work, psychology or counseling or any other thing, we need to understand that when people of color come in, and even other people as well, to our space who are seeking help, we need to understand that, whatever the presenting issue is, they say you know I'm experiencing depression and you know we also need to incorporate that generational trauma into our process and our plan for wellness with that client, because that's a part of their history and that's a part of their story.

1:04:40 So that was part of my goal in my dissertation was to educate mental health providers and help them to understand that this needs to be a part of the plan. Even if it's not a presenting issue, even if it's not a secondary issue, it's there and oftentimes we don't realize it. I mean, if I go to Black people, you know, walking around the street or grocery store or whatever, and be like you've been traumatized no, I haven't, I'm fine. And so we don't even know and see, that's the part. We don't even know we've been traumatized and I don't think you know. The system wants us to know that. I think they want us to just continue in this trauma, passing generation to generation, and live like we're not equal to them, you know, or like we, um, like we have to carry this for the rest of our lives.

1:05:27 We can heal, at least to a certain extent, and I know there's a lot of debate about trauma, being being able to heal trauma. However, um, you know, hey, we won't try. I don't think we can ever get rid of it right and I don't know that I necessarily want to. I want to remember and understand what I've overcome and what my people have overcome, um, but I also want us to overcome it. I don't want us to live in a space of, you know, perpetual um passing on of these internalized negative things. Did I answer you? You answered it perfectly and, as we kind of move towards the end of this interview, how would you sort of conclude this idea of colorism to the audience here?

1:06:18 What do you think is kind of the main takeaway that we as a community, or everyone as a whole, should take about colorism, and how could we maybe improve that minority voice so people can all begin to talk about it, maybe deal with the issue in a better way? I think remember I said, words and language are really important. I think we need to discuss those things. I think that we need to um and I think we are let our children know I've seen little girls walking around with afros like just not picked out, not you know, just wow, like my hair. And I've seen young men too.

1:07:00 So I think embracing our natural beauty and our natural assets is something that's important, regardless of what our skin tone is. But I also think that and that's part of it right, because skin tone is kind of related to hair and that's why I keep bringing it up, because I'm sure I'm projecting some too because I told you also about the young man who I, when I changed schools you know we were talking and he was like how do you? I said, how'd you know I was black? And he said your hair. So hair is big for women and is big, big for black women. So I've seen young ladies with their hair out, their natural hair, and I think that's becoming more acceptable and becoming more even desirable in our society.

1:07:45 So that's a plus. I think we need to discuss colorism. I think we need to have conversations about it. I think the images that we see, like you know, tv shows, even people on cards, on the fronts of magazines or in magazines although I don't know the young people necessarily read actual magazines. They're, you know, more online. But the images that we show them and the things that we say are really important, because kids pick up on stuff that we don't realize, that they hear that we say, whether it's our own kids or somebody else's. Like I've been in the school system which I worked, the language is important, the images are important and changing our mind is important, changing our mind.

1:08:33 When I say for people, you know, that's really like from the slave era, when they're saying something about skin tone, some of them look at me and like get out of here, you know, and other people want to have a conversation about that. And so that's how I think also, we address when somebody else around us is saying things that perpetuate those ways of existing and ways of thinking, I think we speak up. I think we express respectfully, right that you know, what do you think about that? When you say that and that's the therapist in me, right, I'm going to toss the ball back to, you know, my client and make them go through the process of thinking through things because I don't need to do that.

1:09:21 You know this is your time, your session, but even in just kind of casual conversations, bringing those things up, I think it helps people think and addressing stuff when people say it. You know All right, excellent. Well, this was a great discussion, dr. I really loved it and I think the audience will like it too. This was very informative on colorism, as well as maybe some deeper aspects, and I think I learned a lot and I think everyone else will too. Deeper aspects, and I think I learned a lot, and I think everyone else will too, thank you. Thank you again for being on the show and yeah, this is James Paris edition. I will see you all next time.